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PostSubject: How I Got This Far   Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:58 am

I have done a lot of thinking on the subject of religion lately. I have even gone from "looking for a future coming of a physical Jesus" to the realization that Jesus returned as He promised to in 70 AD in judgement. Now I am contemplating on just how it is that I have come this far and to this stage in my journey.
We are studying the book of Matthew at BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) and are currently on chapters 17 and 18. The majority of BSFers are futurist, as I once was. Thinking about this, and studying the transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain in front of Peter, James, and John, I realized something. In order for me to have come as far in my Christian faith as I have I had to be confronted with the Law, which Moses represents, with the Prophets, which is what Elijah represents, and with Grace and Truth, which is what Jesus represents. A promise was made to Abraham, and four hundred years later, the law was given because of transgression. But the law could not dissanul the promise. The law was given to show men that they are sinners. The Prophets were given to preach repentance and a return to God. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets. The word fulfill can mean more than one thing. It comes from the Greek word pleroo which means "to make replete, to cram a net, level up, to furnish, satisfy, execute, finish, verify, be complete, end, expire, be full, make full, fully preach, perfect, or supply.
Upon reading this list of meanings I can't help but to think that one is alive once without the law, as Paul said, then the law comes, or is presented, I am then convicted of my transgressions against the commandments of God and found guilty, therefore, I die spiritually. I am then presented with the Prophets (Repen), whereupon, hearing I confess that I am a sinner in need of mercy. Then in God's grace, He provides forgiveness through the shed blood of His Son Jesus Christ, whom I trust to deliver me from death. I am now resurrected to new life in Christ and dwell with Christ in God.
My question Tom, if you please. What if I had not gone through any of this, and then heard of the Preterist view of Jesus' return in 70 AD in judgement against Jerusalem? Is it possible to be a Christian today without having been convicted of sin? Is sin still an issue today? I am afraid of where some of our preterit friends may be taking us.
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:34 pm

Nan, I must say, you and Tom are so knowledgeable that I feel ashamed that I do not understand much. But I also must thank you for posting all this because I think I am on this forum for a reason as I am grasping some of it. I AM learning from you and Tom and I am very excited about it. It may take me a bit longer, but each little piece that I grasp is one step closer.

You said you were once a futurist. Is that what I am now at the present moment? If you are not a futurist anymore, what are you called? Is Tom the same as you?

Not long ago (just months), I decided to give my all to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. My ALL, meaning I was luke warm for years, but now that is my ONE DESIRE to be "on fire for God" with every breath that I take.
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:37 pm

I wonder how I got directed to this forum....... scratch . I was on another forum, just surfing around reading things on the religious forums and all of a sudden I saw a link to here, I clicked on it and wow, here I was and I felt like I was right where I was supposed to be. Funny how things like that happen. scratch 

Do you believe that God puts a direction in people's life if they give their heart to him completely?
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:22 pm

NanHancock wrote:
I have done a lot of thinking on the subject of religion lately. I have even gone from "looking for a future coming of a physical Jesus" to the realization that Jesus returned as He promised to in 70 AD in judgement. Now I am contemplating on just how it is that I have come this far and to this stage in my journey.
We are studying the book of Matthew at BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) and are currently on chapters 17 and 18. The majority of BSFers are futurist, as I once was. Thinking about this, and studying the transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain in front of Peter, James, and John, I realized something. In order for me to have come as far in my Christian faith as I have I had to be confronted with the Law, which Moses represents, with the Prophets, which is what Elijah represents, and with Grace and Truth, which is what Jesus represents. A promise was made to Abraham, and four hundred years later, the law was given because of transgression. But the law could not dissanul the promise. The law was given to show men that they are sinners. The Prophets were given to preach repentance and a return to God. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets. The word fulfill can mean more than one thing. It comes from the Greek word pleroo which means "to make replete, to cram a net, level up, to furnish, satisfy, execute, finish, verify, be complete, end, expire, be full, make full, fully preach, perfect, or supply.
Upon reading this list of meanings I can't help but to think that one is alive once without the law, as Paul said, then the law comes, or is presented, I am then convicted of my transgressions against the commandments of God and found guilty, therefore, I die spiritually. I am then presented with the Prophets (Repen), whereupon, hearing I confess that I am a sinner in need of mercy. Then in God's grace, He provides forgiveness through the shed blood of His Son Jesus Christ, whom I trust to deliver me from death. I am now resurrected to new life in Christ and dwell with Christ in God.
My question Tom, if you please. What if I had not gone through any of this, and then heard of the Preterist view of Jesus' return in 70 AD in judgment against Jerusalem? Is it possible to be a Christian today without having been convicted of sin? Is sin still an issue today? I am afraid of where some of our preterit friends may be taking us.

I'm not sure it is wise to answer your question until you explain your last statement, since your question appears linked to that statement. Where are some preterit friends taking us?

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:50 am

WhiteDove, yes, I do believe that God directs our steps. "The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way." Ps. 37:23 (KJV)
Tom, the last line "I am afraid of where some of our preterit friends may be taking us" is referring to some who would have us believe that there is no longer sin today, that it was totally done away with at the parousia. If this were so, then what need would one have of a Savior, or a High Priest, both of which Jesus Christ is? Some would have us believe that "all we need is love." I agree, that love is the greatest of all virtues, and absolutely necessary, but what about repentance, and baptism? What of the Lord's Supper? Are these to be adhered to today? Is not, why not? I realize these are elementary questions, but important to me nonetheless.
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:28 am

NanHancock wrote:
WhiteDove, yes, I do believe that God directs our steps. "The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way." Ps. 37:23 (KJV)
Tom, the last line "I am afraid of where some of our preterit friends may be taking us" is referring to some who would have us believe that there is no longer sin today, that it was totally done away with at the parousia. If this were so, then what need would one have of a Savior, or a High Priest, both of which Jesus Christ is? Some would have us believe that "all we need is love." I agree, that love is the greatest of all virtues, and absolutely necessary, but what about repentance, and baptism? What of the Lord's Supper? Are these to be adhered to today? Is not, why not? I realize these are elementary questions, but important to me nonetheless.

And if sin was totally done away with, then there is universal salvation, since it is sin that has kept man separated from God.

I see nowhere in Scripture where sin was eliminated from man. Sin was totally paid for at the cross, but like a class action law suit, in order to benefit from it you have to be part of it. In order for one's sins to be paid for they have to be in Christ.

In Romans 7, Paul deals with our sin nature. And in I John, John also deals with the subject of sin. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make HIM a liar, and His WORD is not in us." I John 1. 8-10, ASV.

There is nothing in Scripture that changes what Paul said in Romans 7, or what John said in his writing. We all need to get to a point when we say, "Oh wretched man that I am."

The presence of sin is a reality today as in any other time. If there is no more sin as those idiots claim than there is no sin in murder, same sex marriage. So we should sit back, shut up, and take any stands whatsoever. I have dealt with this topic several years ago, to no avail, so I have separated myself from them. They are not Christians. They have not the truth, and they make Christ a liar with their false doctrine.

Be warned, some preterists have come up with all kinds of weird doctrines. That is why I don't like to be called a "preterist." There are preterists that are just as corrupt as any other purveyor of false doctrines. I have learned this in 1988, and it hasn't changed.

Nan, I do believe you understand there is more to Christianity than Bible prophecy. Jesus was right when he said, "Straight and narrow is the way, and only few will find it."

By the way, I have posted an article about Christian economics I think you would enjoy. It's in my blog section.

And, did I answer your question?

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:46 pm

Yes Tom, and thank you! I too think that what some are teaching is universalism. There are some that ask the question "what about people who have never heard the gospel? Are they lost?" What do we tell them? I believe that we are judged based on the information we have. How can one who has never heard of Christ know to accept or reject Him? If this is the case, then why present the truth to them, for in doing so, want we be giving them the knowledge that they will have to accept or reject? I quess, what I am getting at is, wouldn't it be better to never have known the truth, than to know the truth and neglect it, and knowing this why do we insist on giving truth to those who do not yet have it? Another baffling thing to me is; Paul states in Romans 7:9 that "I was alive without the law once, then the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. If one is alive without the law, then presenting them with the commandments of God causes them to see their sin. We are, in a sense, uncovering their sin, are we not?
I hope you do not mind my questions.
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:12 pm

This is a great thread. I am enjoying it. Thanks Tom and Nan. You are both so knowledgeable.

Preterit friends are "past" friends I think. Have you both branched off from previous churches or studies? If I am being too nosey, just ignore me.......I am just trying to get to know both of you because I like you both and I am enjoying being here with you.

How old are you Nan, if you don't mind me asking. I am 71. I know you are a lot younger. Maybe in your 30's? I thought Tom was in his 40's.
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:30 am

NanHancock wrote:
Yes Tom, and thank you! I too think that what some are teaching is universalism. There are some that ask the question "what about people who have never heard the gospel? Are they lost?" What do we tell them? I believe that we are judged based on the information we have. How can one who has never heard of Christ know to accept or reject Him? If this is the case, then why present the truth to them, for in doing so, want we be giving them the knowledge that they will have to accept or reject? I quess, what I am getting at is, wouldn't it be better to never have known the truth, than to know the truth and neglect it, and knowing this why do we insist on giving truth to those who do not yet have it? Another baffling thing to me is; Paul states in Romans 7:9  that "I was alive without the law once, then the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. If one is alive without the law, then presenting them with the commandments of God causes them to see their sin. We are, in a sense, uncovering their sin, are we not?
I hope you do not mind my questions.

Scripture teaches that sometimes God keeps people in the dark, and withholds the truth. I don't why. But that is His judgment. He knows best.

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:53 pm

Wow, WhiteDove, you are too kind. I am 50 years old. I did "branch off" from previous "churches" you could say. I used to be a Baptist. I was once at Pentecostal. I've been through the Methodist religion. I ended up in the Church of Christ. Presently, I am attending services at a Baptist denomination with a good friend of mine who is 87. His wife passed away recently and I go with him because I know he enjoys having me go with him. I do not, however, agree with what they teach. I know it is not a good reason to attend services, but, who is it hurting?
How about you? Are you currently involved with any denomination? Non-denomination?
The Church of Christ is non-denominational. I am currently in a state of "what to do?" OR "Should I do anything?" as far as religion goes. I used to look for Jesus to split the eastern sky and take me along with all other believers up to heaven, however, after reexamining Scripture, I can see how the rapture according to man, is not at all what Paul was referring to in Thessalonians.
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:02 am

50? You sure do look very young Nan. Of course, 50 is also young in my thinking. I wouldn't want to be 50 again as I have had sickness all my life and I am soooooo tired of it.

I went to Pentecostal, Baptist, Jehovah Witness, United Church of Canada. Now I don't attend church, but I would go if someone would pick me up. It is too far for me to travel especially in the snowy winter.

We have quite a few Non-Denominational Churches, but not in the area I live.

That is nice that you take that 87 year old man to church. You are very compassionate Nan.

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:51 am

What's the United Church of Canada?

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:52 pm

This is the United Church.

http://www.united-church.ca/beliefs/overview

I was born and raised in this church......but as an adult when I came back to The Lord, I started with Pentecostal.
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:30 am

WhiteDove wrote:
This is the United Church.

http://www.united-church.ca/beliefs/overview

I was born and raised in this church......but as an adult when I came back to The Lord, I started with Pentecostal.

Do you still like that church?

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:50 pm

No Tom, I don't like any churches. I don't attend church anymore. I found so many hypocrites in most churches that I ever attended and I went to many different ones, even as just a guest for a day. They seem to be all the same with their rules and regulations and they all think they have the 'truth' and no one else does.

If I was invited to a church today with a friend, I would go. I am pretty open-minded and I can always pick up something said that will benefit me. Even Catholic. I went to a couple last summer and enjoyed some of what I heard.
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:50 pm

Hi and good afternoon Nan Smile
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:05 pm

Hi WhiteDove, Hope you are doing well today! You and Tom have a very interesting discussion going on. I am trying to decide on whether or not I should be in a congregation of todays "religion" or not.
Tom, I have a question. Where is the bride of Christ today? Ok, more than one question. Does God speak to us through preachers today? Is God to be found inside of any of the congregations that are formed today? I am not asking to be cynical, I am really trying to decide what I need to do.
I have gone from thinking I knew all the answers a year ago, to feeling like I have had to start over and search for answers I thought I had a handle on.
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:30 pm

WhiteDove wrote:
No Tom, I don't like any churches.  I don't attend church anymore.  I found so many hypocrites in most churches that I ever attended and I went to many different ones, even as just a guest for a day.  They seem to be all the same with their rules and regulations and they all think they have the 'truth' and no one else does.

If I was invited to a church today with a friend, I would go.  I am pretty open-minded and I can always pick up something said that will benefit me.  Even Catholic.  I went to a couple last summer and enjoyed some of what I heard.

As for me, I do not, and will not, attend any church that is not founded upon the proper foundation, which is Christ and his apostles. I am not open minded.

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:55 pm

NanHancock wrote:
Hi WhiteDove, Hope you are doing well today! You and Tom have a very interesting discussion going on. I am trying to decide on whether or not I should be in a congregation of todays "religion" or not.
Tom, I have a question. Where is the bride of Christ today?

With Him.
Quote :
Ok, more than one question. Does God speak to us through preachers today?
No. See Hebrews 1.1-3
Quote :
Is God to be found inside of any of the congregations that are formed today?

Of the ones I am aware of, no.
Quote :
I am not asking to be cynical, I am really trying to decide what I need to do. I have gone from thinking I knew all the answers a year ago, to feeling like I have had to start over and search for answers I thought I had a handle on.

The church/congregations must be under the authority of Christ. See Matthew 28.18, and Ephesians 1.19-23. God gave Christ full headship over the church. No one in the church today has any authority over the church. So, whatever we do as a church, it must be authorized by Christ. Where there is no authorization either yay or nay, then I believe it comes under what Paul called, "the perfect law of liberty." God certainly can be found in a church like that. But, where is it?

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:58 pm

Thanks Tom!
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:58 pm

NanHancock wrote:
Hi WhiteDove, Hope you are doing well today! You and Tom have a very interesting discussion going on. I am trying to decide on whether or not I should be in a congregation of todays "religion" or not.
Tom, I have a question. Where is the bride of Christ today? Ok, more than one question. Does God speak to us through preachers today? Is God to be found inside of any of the congregations that are formed today?  I am not asking to be cynical, I am really trying to decide what I need to do.
I have gone from thinking I knew all the answers a year ago, to feeling like I have had to start over and search for answers I thought I had a handle on.

Nan, what is the bride of Christ?

And how do we find out who God speaks to us from?
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:01 pm

Quote Tom
"The church/congregations must be under the authority of Christ. See Matthew 28.18, and Ephesians 1.19-23. God gave Christ full headship over the church. No one in the church today has any authority over the church. So, whatever we do as a church, it must be authorized by Christ. Where there is no authorization either yay or nay, then I believe it comes under what Paul called, "the perfect law of liberty." God certainly can be found in a church like that. But, where is it?"

Matthew 28:18-20

18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

So Tom, how can we tell if a church is under the Authority of Jesus? And how do we get Him to authorize it?
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:20 am

WhiteDove wrote:
Quote Tom
"The church/congregations must be under the authority of Christ. See Matthew 28.18, and Ephesians 1.19-23. God gave Christ full headship over the church. No one in the church today has any authority over the church. So, whatever we do as a church, it must be authorized by Christ. Where there is no authorization either yay or nay, then I believe it comes under what Paul called, "the perfect law of liberty." God certainly can be found in a church like that. But, where is it?"

Matthew 28:18-20

18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

So Tom, how can we tell if a church is under the Authority of Jesus?  And how do we get Him to authorize it?

Authorization is complete. It's all in the New Testament. As such, we can't get him to authorize anything.

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:16 pm

WhiteDove, the bride of Christ is the church. And God spoke to the disciples in the last days, that is the days of the generation that witnessed Christ, through His Son Jesus Christ. This is why I asked Tom about where the bride of Christ is now. Some say that the church, the bride of Christ, is now with him in heaven, and that we are the children of that union. Kind of like Paul calling Timothy his son in 2 Timothy 1.
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:09 pm

When you say the church, which church do you mean? Or do you mean the people who go to church? Or do you mean anyone who loves God?

Would the bride of Christ be Jacob, Abraham, Paul, ?

Thanks Tom. I still don't understand but that is ok, I will catch on eventually.

Nan, Tom, you are both very wonderful for taking the time to try to lead me through this. God bless you both. Christian love, Evelyn.
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