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PostSubject: How I Got This Far   Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:58 am

First topic message reminder :

I have done a lot of thinking on the subject of religion lately. I have even gone from "looking for a future coming of a physical Jesus" to the realization that Jesus returned as He promised to in 70 AD in judgement. Now I am contemplating on just how it is that I have come this far and to this stage in my journey.
We are studying the book of Matthew at BSF (Bible Study Fellowship) and are currently on chapters 17 and 18. The majority of BSFers are futurist, as I once was. Thinking about this, and studying the transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain in front of Peter, James, and John, I realized something. In order for me to have come as far in my Christian faith as I have I had to be confronted with the Law, which Moses represents, with the Prophets, which is what Elijah represents, and with Grace and Truth, which is what Jesus represents. A promise was made to Abraham, and four hundred years later, the law was given because of transgression. But the law could not dissanul the promise. The law was given to show men that they are sinners. The Prophets were given to preach repentance and a return to God. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets. The word fulfill can mean more than one thing. It comes from the Greek word pleroo which means "to make replete, to cram a net, level up, to furnish, satisfy, execute, finish, verify, be complete, end, expire, be full, make full, fully preach, perfect, or supply.
Upon reading this list of meanings I can't help but to think that one is alive once without the law, as Paul said, then the law comes, or is presented, I am then convicted of my transgressions against the commandments of God and found guilty, therefore, I die spiritually. I am then presented with the Prophets (Repen), whereupon, hearing I confess that I am a sinner in need of mercy. Then in God's grace, He provides forgiveness through the shed blood of His Son Jesus Christ, whom I trust to deliver me from death. I am now resurrected to new life in Christ and dwell with Christ in God.
My question Tom, if you please. What if I had not gone through any of this, and then heard of the Preterist view of Jesus' return in 70 AD in judgement against Jerusalem? Is it possible to be a Christian today without having been convicted of sin? Is sin still an issue today? I am afraid of where some of our preterit friends may be taking us.
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:08 pm

WhiteDove wrote:
When you say the church, which church do you mean?  Or do you mean the people who go to church?  Or do you mean anyone who loves God?  

Would the bride of Christ be Jacob, Abraham, Paul, ?

Thanks Tom.  I still don't understand but that is ok, I will catch on eventually.

Nan, Tom, you are both very wonderful for taking the time to try to lead me through this.  God bless you both.  Christian love, Evelyn.

The word church is a misnomer. Translators used it in translation of "EKKLESIA." That is a Greek word that means "called out." The etymology of the word "church" is...
etymonline.com wrote:
Old English cirice, circe "church, public place of worship; Christians collectively," from West Germanic *kirika (cf. Old Saxon kirika, Old Norse kirkja, Old Frisian zerke, Middle Dutch kerke, Dutch kerk, Old High German kirihha, German Kirche), probably [see note in OED] from Greek kyriake (oikia), kyriakon doma "Lord's (house)," from kyrios "ruler, lord," from PIE root *keue- "to swell" ("swollen," hence "strong, powerful"); see cumulus. Phonetic spelling from c.1200, established by 16c. For vowel evolution, see bury. As an adjective from 1570s.

Greek kyriakon (adj.) "of the Lord" was used of houses of Christian worship since c.300, especially in the East, though it was less common in this sense than ekklesia or basilike. An example of the direct Greek-to-Germanic progress of many Christian words, via the Goths; it probably was used by West Germanic people in their pre-Christian period.

Also picked up by Slavic, probably via Germanic (e.g. Old Church Slavonic criky, Russian cerkov). Finnish kirkko, Estonian kirrik are from Scandinavian. Romance and Celtic languages use variants of Latin ecclesia (e.g. French église, 11c.).
As you can see, none of the words in the etymology of "church," say nothing about being called out. Even though some of the words meant, "of the Lord," that is not the meaning of EKKLESIA as mentioned above. The words EKKLESIA with KYRIAKON would mean "called out of the Lord." And that is what the "church," is. The called out of the Lord.

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:29 am

Dear sweet Evelyn, Your seeking spirit tells me that you are truly trying to learn the truth. The church, as I understand her, is the body of believers in Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:27
"Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it." Here Paul is writing to the Corinthians and he calls them "Christ's body."
Colossians 1:24
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions." Here Paul is writing to the Colossians and tells them that "His body (Christs' body), is the church."
Colossians 1:18
"He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything." In this verse, Paul tells the Colossians that Christ is the "head of the body, the church."
You see, the body of Christ is the church. Abraham, Jacob, and Paul are all a part of that body. I have always believed that, I too, when I believed, became a part of that body, just as yourself, when you believed. We are all members one of another.
The bride of Christ is the church and there is only one church, that is the body of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Believers all over the world are united in the Spirit of God.

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:14 pm

TomL wrote:
The word church is a misnomer.  Translators used it in translation of "EKKLESIA."  That is a Greek word that means "called out."  

Hi TomL,

In the Liddell Scott lexicon (9th edition, 1940), EKKLhSIA (link - denied by forum settings) is defined as an "assembly duly summoned" and shown to be used in the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) to refer to the Jewish congregation that met (assembled) together for worship services (whatever the type).

The Latin synonym is comita from which the English word committee is derived.

Given the specific nature of the word, any group of people who believe themselves to be called (or even legally appointed / voted upon) to meet together would comprise an EKKLhSIA or assembly.

So one might say "where two or more are gathered in my name," this would be the church.  I don't feel the more formal application of the word to a legally organized religious society is a misnomer, but just a secondary usage, as with its common use to refer to the building in which the assembly gathers.

God bless,
Yehu
(yeah, from that "other place")
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:02 am

NanHancock wrote:
WhiteDove, the bride of Christ is the church...

(rwr)
Good evening NanHancock … Nan
Good evening Whitedove …WD

Nan, WD ask a very good question about this "Bride of Christ,"
and I understand your your generally stated reply; however, I'd
like (if you dont mind) to pursue this a bit farther …

Where, exactly, do the scriptures use this particular phrase?
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:31 am

I agree with you. Here in Pennsylvania we have the General Assembly, which are elected by the people to take care of the affairs of the people of the State. There was an assembly like that in Acts 15. I like the way you put it, "assembly duly summoned." I also believe there were assemblies like that in Antioch before the Jerusalem assembly was called and convened. This was not an assembly for the entire body of Christ in Jerusalem, but selected people the meet with the apostles in Jerusalem to discuss the Judaizers that were going from city to city demanding that the Gentiles must follow the Law of Moses.

The early Christians did not have assemblies like that on a regular basis, but instead went form house to house, praising God and having favor with all the people. There were no ecclesiastical buildings. This is similar to what the Amish do today. But, even those house to house meetings were called. Your phrase, "assembly duly summoned," indicates an assembly that is called for a purpose. And that is absolutely right. Unfortunately, the "church" in America does not follow the Biblical model, except for the Amish, as I mentioned.


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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:32 am

rwr wrote:
NanHancock wrote:
WhiteDove, the bride of Christ is the church...

(rwr)
Good evening NanHancock … Nan
Good evening Whitedove …WD

Nan, WD ask a very good question about this "Bride of Christ,"
and I understand your your generally stated reply; however, I'd
like (if you dont mind) to pursue this a bit farther …

Where, exactly, do the scriptures use this particular phrase?

Are you referring to the phrase, "body of Christ"?

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:53 am

TomL wrote:
rwr wrote:
NanHancock wrote:
WhiteDove, the bride of Christ is the church...

(rwr)
Good evening NanHancock … Nan
Good evening Whitedove …WD

Nan, WD ask a very good question about this "Bride of Christ,"
and I understand your your generally stated reply; however, I'd
like (if you dont mind) to pursue this a bit farther …

Where, exactly, do the scriptures use this particular phrase?

(TomL)
Are you referring to the phrase, "body of Christ"?

(rwr)
Good evening TomL …

No, TomL, I'm referring yo the phrase used by Nan,
"the Bride of Christ" ...
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:56 am

rwr wrote:
TomL wrote:
rwr wrote:
NanHancock wrote:
WhiteDove, the bride of Christ is the church...

(rwr)
Good evening NanHancock … Nan
Good evening Whitedove …WD

Nan, WD ask a very good question about this "Bride of Christ,"
and I understand your your generally stated reply; however, I'd
like (if you dont mind) to pursue this a bit farther …

Where, exactly, do the scriptures use this particular phrase?

(TomL)
Are you referring to the phrase, "body of Christ"?

(rwr)
Good evening TomL …

No, TomL, I'm referring yo the phrase used by Nan,
"the Bride of Christ" ...

Okay, my bad. I meant to say "bride of Christ." I am not sure if that phrase appears anywhere in Scripture. However it is alluded to in Revelation 21.9. There the "bride" is referred to as "the wife of the Lamb." In this symbolism we know the "Lamb" is Christ. Hence the concept of the "bride of Christ."

In context, the bride is the "New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." Rev. 21.2, NKJV.

So, I guess the question is, is the New Jerusalem also the church? Matthew Henry thought so as he wrote in his commentary on the subject, "This new Jerusalem is the church of God in its new and perfect state, the church triumphant. Its blessedness came wholly from God, and depends on him." And there seems to be a consensus among theologians that the New Jerusalem is the church. And the church is the bride of Christ.

I hope that answers your question, even though it wasn't directed at me.

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:18 am

(TomL)
I hope that answers your question, even though it wasn't directed at me…

(rwr)
True, the question wasn't directed at you …
And now, I dont suppose that Nan will feel any need to answer …
Oh well, let's work with what we have, then.

(TomL)
..."bride of Christ." I am not sure if that phrase appears anywhere in Scripture.

(rwr)
Exactly!  

That is this particular "phrase" does not appear anywhere in the scriptures;
however, it is the very foundation of any number of religious speculations …Ummmm?

(TomL)
However, it is alluded to …

(rwr)
Key word, here …

(Toml)
…...the "bride" is referred to as "the wife of the Lamb."
In this symbolism we know the "Lamb" is Christ.
Hence the concept of the "bride of Christ."

(rwr)
…"hence" …

I rest my point; thank you TomL

(TomL)
In context, the bride is the "New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." Rev. 21.2, NKJV.

(rwr)
And so it grows, we start out with something not found in scriptures, and build
whole theologies upon these feet, this foundation of clay ...

Again, I rest my point; thank you TomL

(TomL)
So, I guess the question is, is the New Jerusalem also the church? Matthew Henry thought so …

(rwr)
Whoa there, pilgrim … you've already proven my point; so stop stabbing yourself with it!

(TomL)
And there seems to be a consensus among theologians …

(rwr)
I'm not being rude … or at least I'm trying very hard not to be;
not intending to be, at least, and I am new here, and this is your web site …
trying very hard not to … not to … not …oh what the XXXX ...BWA HA HA!

(TomL)
...that the New Jerusalem is the church. And the church is the bride of Christ.
I hope that answers your question, even though it wasn't directed at me.

(rwr)
And I hope, too, that there's some food for thought to be had, here … BWA HA HA!
Sorry, TomL … I'm just not a nice person, but if you can overlook my my odd sense of humor
I'm sure that we will get along just fine … BWA HA HA!

Where's Sophie when I need Her!

This fellowship thing is hard for me to grasp, but God help me, I am working at it  

(TomL)
I hope that answers your question …
Q: Where, exactly, do the scriptures use this particular phrase?
A: No where!

(rwr)
I love that signature quote of yours …the one from our apostle Paul to Timothy, about
..."handling the word of truth with precision" …

(This post was edited because of inappropriate language)
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:44 am

Forgive me rwr, but what is your point? Are you suggesting that there is no bride of Christ? That, is settled doctrine for a long time. However, I have often challenged settled doctrine. So, that's not a big deal, since sometimes settled doctrine is not Biblical. But, settled doctrine regarding the "bride of Christ," is not unbiblical as I have explained it.

If the bride and the wife of the Lamb, which we know to be Christ, are the same, then the words bride and wife are interchangeable. That is just the way the English language works.

Do you have any Biblical reason why this settled doctrine is incorrect?

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:12 am

Hi TomL,

Having been in about 16 Amish houses, I just cannot agree that the Amish follow “the Biblical model,” although as a “cast out” or marginalized society there is measure of community-identity behaviour that I’ve also found present in extended Jewish families, however the legalism is just as bad.  My take is that the Amish are in essence Hasidic Christians.

Early Christians met in homes because they didn’t have the necessary resources to support and maintain an assembly hall until much later, not because there was any divine directive to do so.  At the first, the apostles expected God to hand the Temple over to them.

Act 2:46 KJV  And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

The teaching and worship practices still were held in the Temple, while fellowship dinners were held in various private homes. After all, the disciples were following the True Messiah and were therefore the True Israelites teaching True doctrine, so why shouldn’t God hand them the keys to the Temple?

In addition, until Paul was so completely frustrated by his failure to evangelize the Jews to this True Judaism and finally left to focus on the Ethnos (Gentiles), many verses show the Early Believers met in synagogues and expected these buildings to become their own “churches.”

My point is that there is no scriptural declaration to the early believes that they should NOT have an assembly hall and should rather meet in homes as some “holier” and “better” way.

When they failed to secure a place amongst the temple and synagogues (mostly by Paul’s own hand – ironically)  believers fell outside the protection of the Roman state, and so any money put into “Christian Temples” would outrage the pagan state officials, and so Christians would be put to death and their property confiscated by Rome as a matter of treason.  (Jews were exempt from this having successfully convinced the Romans that they were a “second race.”)

In other words, these early Christians just didn’t have the money or the political-legal protection to build assembly halls (i.e. church buildings) as the Jews had or they would have built and met in new “Christian Synagogues.”  There’s no "magic spirituality" to meeting in anybody’s home.  Just the opposite.  I have found that the owners of the house in which believers meet tend to demand a measure of being first among equals.  As we are meant to be brothers, it’s best that worship services be held on neutral and equal ground (perhaps a library hall?).  The first Christian Church buildings found were built around a baptismal pool, so baptisms no longer were held in public down at the river and subject to political spying.

So... there would have been ecclesiastical buildings had social circumstances allowed.

Yehu

PS: Just to say, the phrase “assembly duly summoned” is Liddell Scott’s, not mine.

PPS: A good example of a “called out” Amish would be Sam Smucker of the Worship Center in Lancaster PA.  I’d post the link, but can’t yet.  Hey, maybe we can visit there sometime, once I fix my roof from the ice damage.
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:13 pm

Yehushuan wrote:
Hi TomL,

Having been in about 16 Amish houses, I just cannot agree that the Amish follow “the Biblical model,” although as a “cast out” or marginalized society there is measure of community-identity behaviour that I’ve also found present in extended Jewish families, however the legalism is just as bad.  My take is that the Amish are in essence Hasidic Christians.
What are Hasidic Christians? That term is not in the Bible that I am aware of. Oh, and I don't consider the Amish to be Christians. They follow Jacob Amman, not Christ.

Yehushuan wrote:
Early Christians met in homes because they didn’t have the necessary resources to support and maintain an assembly hall until much later, not because there was any divine directive to do so.  At the first, the apostles expected God to hand the Temple over to them.

Act 2:46 KJV  And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

The teaching and worship practices still were held in the Temple, while fellowship dinners were held in various private homes. After all, the disciples were following the True Messiah and were therefore the True Israelites teaching True doctrine, so why shouldn’t God hand them the keys to the Temple?
I don't believe the disciples ever expected the temple to be handed over to them, since Jesus told them it would be destroyed. They understood that Jesus was/is the temple.

Yehushuan wrote:
In addition, until Paul was so completely frustrated by his failure to evangelize the Jews to this True Judaism and finally left to focus on the Ethnos (Gentiles), many verses show the Early Believers met in synagogues and expected these buildings to become their own “churches.”

My point is that there is no scriptural declaration to the early believes that they should NOT have an assembly hall and should rather meet in homes as some “holier” and “better” way.

When they failed to secure a place amongst the temple and synagogues (mostly by Paul’s own hand – ironically)  believers fell outside the protection of the Roman state, and so any money put into “Christian Temples” would outrage the pagan state officials, and so Christians would be put to death and their property confiscated by Rome as a matter of treason.  (Jews were exempt from this having successfully convinced the Romans that they were a “second race.”)

In other words, these early Christians just didn’t have the money or the political-legal protection to build assembly halls (i.e. church buildings) as the Jews had or they would have built and met in new “Christian Synagogues.”  There’s no "magic spirituality" to meeting in anybody’s home.  Just the opposite.  I have found that the owners of the house in which believers meet tend to demand a measure of being first among equals.  As we are meant to be brothers, it’s best that worship services be held on neutral and equal ground (perhaps a library hall?).  The first Christian Church buildings found were built around a baptismal pool, so baptisms no longer were held in public down at the river and subject to political spying.

So... there would have been ecclesiastical buildings had social circumstances allowed.
You might be right about the building issue. I don't have an issue with having a building. I have an issue with idolizing the building. I have an issue with the idolatry that goes on in those buildings. I have an issue with the building more resembling a pagan temple than anything God would permit. As it is written in 2nd Corinthians 6.16,
biblehub.com/isv wrote:
What agreement can a temple of God make with idols? For we are the temple of the living God, just as God said:

“I will live and walk among them.

I will be their God,

and they will be my people.
I suspect you understand that. You speak like a JW.

Yehushuan wrote:
Yehu

PS: Just to say, the phrase “assembly duly summoned” is Liddell Scott’s, not mine.

PPS: A good example of a “called out” Amish would be Sam Smucker of the Worship Center in Lancaster PA.  I’d post the link, but can’t yet.  Hey, maybe we can visit there sometime, once I fix my roof from the ice damage.
I do get to Lancaster a couple times a month. I come down to play Rook with some friends. Planning for this Saturday. I know of the Worship Center. I don't believe they are Christians either. They too practice idolatry.

Sorry to hear about the damage to your house. Will you have any problems getting it fixed?

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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:21 pm

(TomL)
I don't believe they are Christians either …

(rwr)
Aha!
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:56 pm

(TomL)
What are Hasidic Christians? That term is not in the Bible that I am aware of.

(Yehu)
Well the term “Hasidic Jew” isn’t in the Bible either, yet they exist as a religious community.  So as I said, the term is my own “take” (i.e. label) of a New Testament based Ecclesia that is extremely legal in its behaviour and extremely exclusionary (and derisive) of outsiders.

(TomL)
Oh, and I don't consider the Amish to be Christians. They follow Jacob Amman, not Christ.

(Yehu)
Well one might say this of Lutherans, or any other assembly for that matter.  There’s typically one believer to whom God has given scriptural insight and calls out others who may feel the same in these matters.  In that other believers just as equally saved and sincere happen to disagree, then a label gets slapped on the organization to identify its key differences – Baptist, Anabaptist, Reformed, Moravian, whose seminary is in Bethlehem PA, Lutheran, Mennonite, Amish, Presbyterian, Methodist, Quaker, Evangelical Congregational, whose seminary is in Myerstown PA (Pennsylvania Dutch: Moyerschteddel), Catholic, Orthodox, Episcopalian… and so it goes.

At this point, given the way the word “Christian” is used in common language (i.e. America) it would probably be misleading of me to say I’m a Christian.  It all depends upon who is using what particular definition.  The Catholics think they are the only Christians, and all others apostate, in the same manner as most Protestants consider JWs and Mormons to be apostates.  I’m almost to the point where I consider everybody an apostate.

(TomL)
I don't believe the disciples ever expected the temple to be handed over to them, since Jesus told them it would be destroyed.

(Yehu)
I already gave the reference to show how the newly birthed church actually behaved.  In that there is strong evidence to realize these very same believers thought Jesus would be physically returning imminently, there would be no reason to associate the destruction of the temple (building) with some other event.  So by their noted behaviour, I think it obvious that the Christians thought God would be giving them the Temple (building) for their use at least up until the time of his “second coming.”

I’m not trying to argue futurist v. preterist here, but that “home churches” were not some kind of secret divinely inspired new and better way for early believers to meet.  They started in the Temple (building) and there is no indication that the disciples expected anything different to happen.  Of course when they got kicked out, then it became necessary for plan B.

(TomL)
I don't have an issue with having a building. I have an issue with idolizing the building. I have an issue with the idolatry that goes on in those buildings. I have an issue with the building more resembling a pagan temple than anything God would permit.

(Yehu)
One might say God permitted Solomon’s temple, even while objecting that He had not lived in a house.  As with all things dealing with humans, though, it is almost inevitable that pride, power, and jealousy rears its hideous head.  Then again, while the Bene Y’shuans have no actual buildings (yet), there are elements which would distinguish the assembly hall (typically called a sanctuary) from, say, a basketball court or a concert hall.  Oh, and don’t confuse my use of the term “assembly hall” with Kingdom Hall.  I’m just using that phrase since it seemed you had objected to the use of the term “Church.”

(TomL)
You speak like a JW.

(Yehu)
Hey, watch with the insults.

(TomL)
I know of the Worship Center. I don't believe they are Christians either. They too practice idolatry.

(Yehu)
Interesting.  At some point, then, you may wish to blog your definition of “idolatry,” or post a link here if you have already done so.

I am and shall remain,
Yehushuan

PS: I have about 10 major leaks right now all along the back wall, and no end in sight until I can find someone to go up and shovel snow off the roof.  I just don’t have energy to do this today.  But once the weather breaks, I’ll get a roofer, and then repair the interior myself.  (I got tools.)
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:25 pm

I am sorry that I have not yet responded to your question Yehu. I have only just gotten online for today. I see that you and Tom have discussed the question in detail, and you have both done a good job. I can point out a few verses that allude to the "bride of Christ." John alluded to Jesus as the bridegroom in John 3:29. The bride is also alluded to in Rev. 21:2, 21:9; Rev. 19:7-9.
I do not see the actual phrase "the bride of Christ" anywhere in Scripture, and if I have been misled, I would welcome your input on the matter.
I do have a question. Who are the called according to God's purpose? And how does this impact us today?
I do not know when I shall be back up here, so please be patient with me. I am not trying to avoid your questions, and I look forward to hearing back from you.
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:15 pm

NanHancock wrote:
I am sorry that I have not yet responded to your question Yehu.

Wait.  What?  I asked a question?  Where'd I do that?

Hmmm... that may have been rwr who roared.

For my two cents, I saw the reference in John 3:29 and while NOT digging into this in detail got the impression that John the Baptizer thought the bride to be the Holy Ghost.

In addition, the word Christ, however, is not an English word.  Rather, it's a Greek word that was left un-translated; actually transliterated to be precise - copied into English letters, c.h.r.i.s.t and then left alone.  To the unschooled it really is seen as Jesus' last name.

As for the book of Revelation, it is not in our canon, so I tend to keep quiet on the subject.

NanHancock wrote:
I do have a question. Who are the called according to God's purpose? And how does this impact us today?

Interesting.  I believe you're referring to the following verse:

Rom 8:28 KJV  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (G4286 πρόθεσις - prosthesis).

And yet the English gloss "purpose" is a secondary use, the primary (according to Liddell and Scott) being placing in public; with the example of a corpse, laying it out and used in the Septuagint to indicate the loaves laid before, or the shew-bread.

So there may not be any specific purpose to the calling (in the manner that we would comprehend "purpose"), but rather that the calling of God has a particular shewing - there is a publicly seen occurrence attached to this calling forth by God, which the Charismatics may well consider to be the "slaying in the spirit."  Called according to 'placing in public.'  And perhaps the speaking in tongues is such a prosthesis (shewing).

Act 10:44-47 KJV  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Act 19:2-6 KJV  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.  (3)  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.  (4)  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.  (5)  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.  (6)  And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Of course this may need further reflection, but on the surface, the "prosthesis" of God would be a public shewing forth of being baptized by the Holy Ghost, as indicated in these two passages to be demonstrated by a speaking with tongues.

Yehu
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PostSubject: Re: How I Got This Far   Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:38 am

TomL wrote:
 The words EKKLESIA with KYRIAKON would mean "called out of the Lord."  And that is what the "church," is.  The called out of the Lord.  

You don't cease to amaze me Tom, your knowledge is something I can only imagine. Thank you for explaining. So we are the church on here. All of God's children are the church. Got it!  cheers 
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